Yes, someone crapped in the privy. No courtesy flush or perfume spray, just a bunch of stink. I kinda knew I would have that effect when I started talking about Outlaw Press products.
Just to clear the air a wee bit. I jumped feet first into the sewage when the pissing match started with the Trollgod. I held his banner high, posted the posts as requested, redacted parts of posts that were requested to be redacted. Then we were told to retreat. The war was over, no ground was won... if anything, ground was lost.
Which leads me to believe, right or wrong, that Outlaw Press was a legal right to publish Tunnels & Trolls material. Whatever contracts that were signed or entered into are still in effect, or at least severely disputed.
Might Outlaw Press have taken advantage of the Trollgod? Quite possibly. Still, it is no longer a battle that has a fight to it.
Has OP's license to publish T&T material been revoked? Depends on how the initial license was written. No one knows but those that signed it. Still, OP could always go the route of Mayfair games and such, and just say "for use with Tunnels & Trolls". Even Kenzer Co avoided the GSL with their first 4e product, and went with "for use with the 4th edition of the worlds most popular RPG" or something to that effect.
The use of copyrighted artwork without permission which started this downward spiral? That does not appear to be the current issue. It was a huge issue, and whether it was ignorance when purchased from a broker (as one article states), or willful arrogance, recent OP products are sans cover art, with the exception of the magazines.
Maybe someone who has submitted to the Hobbit Hole or such can let us know what kind of rights Outlaw Press gets when you sign off on the contract. Can they republish / repackage?
Could Outlaw Press be the moral equivalent of a monster that chews up babies and then poops on your couch? Quite possibly. I don't know. Maybe I'd feel different if I hadn't been drawn into a fight that wasnt mine, then told we were apologizing and walking away.
I no longer see this in black and white, but shades of grey.
For those that see it in black and white, God bless you. Me, I'm going to be reading my Tunnels & Troll material in poor lighting (the type your mother always complained to you when you read in it) with the faint aroma of poop - or is that Troll?
Stonehell: Sewer cleanup
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Session 270 was played on 10/28/24
Morgana, wizard (Rob)
Borumar, Triton Thief (Josh)
Blotto, Goblin Fighter (Lanse)
Nick, Fighter 7 (Me)
Koltic, Cleric ...
12 minutes ago
Could you add more qualifications to that?
ReplyDeleteMaybe make it more tentative? Vague? Ambiguous? Indecisive?
That's why it is grey ;)
ReplyDeleteSeriously, when the main guy in the fight says - "no harm, no foul, we're all good here. everyone, lets let bygones be bygones" - i'm left wondering why the fight in the first place
Unless, from a legal grounds, the guy fighting the fight had no grounds at all.
I am decisive tho... I'm reading the shit and will be posting about it. Poop and all ;)
Stop this nonsense!
ReplyDelete"Which leads me to believe, right or wrong, that Outlaw Press was a legal right to publish Tunnels & Trolls material. Whatever contracts that were signed or entered into are still in effect, or at least severely disputed."
This is just utter idiocy. Take some time read back on what happen before you muddle the water with speculation on what happened. Go ask the people involved if there was any contracts, and what they entailed. Go check with Rick Loomis. Speculating on what is legal or not is not just pointless, but might hurt those involved. Please.
Enjoy what T&T products you like, but stop amateur lawyer speculation. Post about good stuff for T&T and stop pedalling hither and dither on the state of things. Unless you have a part in the conflict it just looks silly. There's a lot of stuff to talk about without that crap.
All i have is speculation. I posted all of Ken's angry tirades, as I felt that was the right thing to do. Then, suddenly, he throws in the towel and makes nice with Shippy - and folks like me are told to remove all the posts we were asked to post - and no real explanation other then Ken and James have come to an amicable understanding - all that leaves a very bitter taste in ones mouth.
ReplyDeleteOutlaw Press is the source of about 80% (conservative estimate) of the Tunnels & Trolls content out there. I'm not going to ignore it. It all had the blessing of the Trollgod before the artwork debacle. Now, we are told to make our own decision.
I'm not going to deny that Outlaw Press may very well be the devil, but the devil is usually in the details. We have very little in the way of details.
I may speculate about legal details, but there is no way that is going to harm or hurt someone. Just because I may believe something is so, does not make it truth. Just because I write something on a blog, does not make me an expert. It makes me a blog writer.
None of the parties involved are required to show me, or anyone else, contracts or details of the dealings going on. I doubt any clarification will be forth coming.
I'll speculate some more: "The Tunnels & Trolls 6e T&T rules are a tribute to Tunnels & Trolls, originally written by Ken St. Andre and trademarked by Flying Buffalo inc. The use of Tunnels & Trolls is offically approved by both Flying Buffalo Inc and Ken St Andre".
To me, this is an apparent attempt to try and seem more like an amature / fan produced work (tribute) and well as make the statement that the use of the trademark and underlying copyright is approved by the rights holders - but there in no mention of an OFFICIAL LICENSE.
I'll speculate that there was a handshake agreement, and those are a bitch to disolve as there is little if anything written - pure speculation - its what bloggers do
When I read that you had decided to purchase products from Outlaw Press I just shrugged. My thinking is that (a.) you're an adult, (b.) it's your money, and (C.) none of my business.
ReplyDeleteI used to own a copy of T&T. All this mess has soured me on T&T, whatever the truth is, it doesn't matter to me anymore. I'm done. Any interest I had in the game is gone.
I'm going to err on the side of caution, and not support outlaws. The highest court in the land could proclaim them innocent, but I will not buy any OP products ever. Or any T&T products for that matter.
Z, there's the game and then there is the "politics". The game rocks and inspires me. The "politics" depresses me.
ReplyDeleteI call it "politics", as the resolution was damn political in nature.
Yeah, I understand. I don't fault you at all for your decision. I'm sure the resolution involved someone's lawyer, and threats of litigation. I find it telling that OP removed so much art from their products. I'm not saying they are out right guilty of theft, but if they weren't, why remove the art? Was it all a big mistake? I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me anymore. So many games out there I won't miss T&T.
ReplyDeleteTo tell you the truth, I think everyone involved in that fiasco made mistakes that could have been prevented. By everyone, I mean everyone, Loomis, Andre, Shipman, all the artists and writers. Hopefully, everyone has learned from this, and won't make the same mistake twice.
I totally agree with you Z. The f' ups were many, and involved more then just Shippy.
ReplyDeleteThen again, Outlaw Press changes websites more often then my kid actually does wash, which is telling too.
Zanazaz:
ReplyDeleteTo tell you the truth, I think everyone involved in that fiasco made mistakes that could have been prevented. By everyone, I mean everyone, Loomis, Andre, Shipman, all the artists and writers. Hopefully, everyone has learned from this, and won't make the same mistake twice.
I couldn't agree more.
Tenkar:
I'll speculate some more: "The Tunnels & Trolls 6e T&T rules are a tribute to Tunnels & Trolls, originally written by Ken St. Andre and trademarked by Flying Buffalo inc. The use of Tunnels & Trolls is offically approved by both Flying Buffalo Inc and Ken St Andre".
To me, this is an apparent attempt to try and seem more like an amature / fan produced work (tribute) and well as make the statement that the use of the trademark and underlying copyright is approved by the rights holders - but there in no mention of an OFFICIAL LICENSE.
I'll speculate that there was a handshake agreement, and those are a bitch to disolve as there is little if anything written - pure speculation - its what bloggers do
That kind of speculation is subtly different from the one in the post above, and makes more sense.
Anyhow. We totally agree that there's good T&T stuff out there to talk about, so let's do just that.
Andreas Davour has left a new comment on your post "The Trollish Taproom - Someone Crapped in the Priv...":
ReplyDeleteZanazaz:
To tell you the truth, I think everyone involved in that fiasco made mistakes that could have been prevented. By everyone, I mean everyone, Loomis, Andre, Shipman, all the artists and writers. Hopefully, everyone has learned from this, and won't make the same mistake twice.
I couldn't agree more.
Tenkar:
I'll speculate some more: "The Tunnels & Trolls 6e T&T rules are a tribute to Tunnels & Trolls, originally written by Ken St. Andre and trademarked by Flying Buffalo inc. The use of Tunnels & Trolls is offically approved by both Flying Buffalo Inc and Ken St Andre".
To me, this is an apparent attempt to try and seem more like an amature / fan produced work (tribute) and well as make the statement that the use of the trademark and underlying copyright is approved by the rights holders - but there in no mention of an OFFICIAL LICENSE.
I'll speculate that there was a handshake agreement, and those are a bitch to disolve as there is little if anything written - pure speculation - its what bloggers do
That kind of speculation is subtly different from the one in the post above, and makes more sense.
Anyhow. We totally agree that there's good T&T stuff out there to talk about, so let's do just that.
Posted by Andreas Davour to Tenkar's Tavern at January 5, 2011 2:35 AM
blogger was nice enough to drop 2 of AD's posts between yesterday and last nite... this is last nites
ReplyDeleteAndreas, you were grabbed by the new spam bot and flagged as spam. I never even knew there was a spam folder before...
ReplyDeleteFixed, I hope
Glad to hear they showed up. I was beginning to wonder how come they disappeared after showing up once.
ReplyDeletei have a feeling someone flagged you. i need to research how the blogger anti-spam works, but i have my suspicions, as i mention in todays post.
ReplyDeletebtw, i'm in total agreement with your comment from this morning, although my opinions are becoming less grey after someone flagged you as spam. Free discussion is good for gaming