I do believe I captured everything that was deleted from the conversation with our good friends over at Dragonwars of Trayth, as well as some G+ highlights that will probably be deleted.
At least now, with some effort, one can follow the weekend festivities. Many folks suggested popcorn to enjoy with your reading but I suggest beer. Perhaps both might be in order.
If I missed something, let me know and I'll take a second look to find it.
Alright, that's a wrap!
Wow... Sometimes it seems like English isn't their first language, then at other times it reads normally. Well, mechanically normal anyway. Almost like there was more than one person posting under the same name. Thanks for the peek behind the curtain.
ReplyDeleteI thought the same thing as well..
DeleteSad thing is they'll change all of the names (including the company name) and probably try again, and again.
ReplyDeleteThey did this once before, by the way. They were called something else before their two attempts at Trayth.
DeleteHere's what they used to be called, before the whole "Gygax museum" scam became part of their story.
Deletehttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/608022189/world-of-calvanna-rpg-ciities-of-calvanna
They use the same art, and their origin as a 4e setting is clear in Trayth, which imports the default 4e "war between primordials and the gods" prehistory.
DeleteWhich may explain why they don't seem to understand old school gaming. (Not that old school and 4e are fully incompatible, but I wouldn't expect you can just swap out the systems without causing major changes to your assumptions about what a gaming world could or should provide.)
Seriously... How old are they?!
ReplyDeleteTheir gross ignorance of copyright law makes it clear they have no publishing background (worth mentioning). Their grossly skewed understanding of OSR fundamentals along with planning to support OSRIC and -3.5- Pathfinder suggests they don't understand their market.
Their comments about stocking hex maps suggests they have no working knowledge of running a campaign or hex-crawl and the dangers of over detailing at the setting level, never mind that most settings so deeply detailed are snooze-crawls, and more importantly, that deep-detailing is contrary to most of the OSR-vibe.
Finally, their comments about the ages of people involved and the life-spans of the OSR gamers, more than anything, suggests that their official commentator is actually 12-16 years old.
And one more thing.... the OSR is about free and affordable gaming for all, not turning a friggin' buck.
ReplyDeleteARG. Blogger keeps eating my replied.
Delete"...planning to support OSRIC and -3.5- Pathfinder suggests they don't understand their market."
Not that I am defending a person/group with the temperament of a tween...
BUT if you search DTRPG, there are a *lot* of small publishers that have flavors of the same supplement for both Pathfinder and some version of the OSR rules.
From a business standpoint, it actually makes a lot of sense. If you can create a "Pathfinder compatible" version of your product by only changing a few stat blocks, or if your supplement if mostly fluff content making it relatively system agnostic, you're a fool not to add Pathfinder compatibility since they hold a major share of the gaming consumer public.
I think this is an unfair critique. Frog God Games does this themselves and I don't think one can claim they don't understand the OSR audience.
"...the OSR is about free and affordable gaming for all, not turning a friggin' buck."
That's also a poor critique. If you are a publisher, even a small one, you want to get paid for your work.
Critique of their immature comments is fair game... but their business model of supporting multiple systems is nothing new and actually makes business sense.
The childish attacks when anyone dares to criticize them (and the critique on this blog was fairly timid at first) really screams basement dwelling 13 year old. I remember that, as a teen gamer in the 90's, I was often on the receiving end of this sort of rage dump when I dared to point out that, maybe, the broke 14 year old GM I was gaming with wasn't going to start a gaming company in the next three months with his (Self Proclaimed) professional artist best friend... also 14.
ReplyDeleteI am baffled by why so many people want you to pay for PDFs. I mean,come on, I pay real money I want real product. Look at all of the small zines out there. Most of them are under $5 an issue and most of them are doing quality work. PDFs should be for samples or free products, not final releases. Especially if you are raising money on Kickstarter. Use some of that cash to give your backers a real product.
ReplyDeletePDFs ARE real product, but many price them the same nearly so as dead tree, which have their own innate printing costs.
DeleteFew, if any PDFs should cost over 10 bucks - most should be 5 bucks or less IMHO.
There are times I'd rather have a rulebook on my comp screen or tablet (tablet especially for convention travel)
Art isn't free, even if it's in a pdf.
DeleteNor are the countless hours graphics designers spend making pages functional and beautiful.
DeleteWell, PDFs are real...but I wouldn't pay much for one. I don't buy them at all as I don't enjoy reading in that format. But I might buy and print one and put it in a binder if the product was appealing and/or unavailable elsewhere.
DeleteI'm not saying you did anything wrong, Lord Tenkar, but reading that was like the time MADD reconstructed a drunk driving accident at my high school: no one had to go into that much detail to show me that they were behaving badly. Glad to see you've got an asking-and-telling policy. :)
ReplyDeleteSomeone forgot to schedule their Cognitive behavioral therapy session and get their Prozac refilled.
ReplyDeleteWe're on a mission from Trevor ;)
ReplyDeleteDEAR BLOG
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE ILLEGAL.
STOP ALL THE ILLEGAL THINGS AND CRITICISM NOW.
Your comment is illegal.
DeleteAs is your reply. Stop all illegal activity. Stop. Stop. Stop.
DeleteCalling my reply illegal is even more illegal. I looked it up on a web site and they said I can sue you for using words I copyrighted, such as "is" and "your" by using them in my reply.
DeleteOh, the comments on G+ are just cute. The complete lack of understanding of how (and why) a hexcrawl is set up is just precious.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.writing.com/main/books/entry_id/101_negative_comments is an overlooked chance to learn the mature way of living with it. Though I am back to my own "Please don't make your replies seem to me, as if provoking a meeting of your face with my hammer is your one & only motive for writing them.", too. My browser was forced into a redirection to read this, not so nice.
ReplyDeleteYou're right about the beer, Eric. I don't drink and post, though. A policy that the folks over at "Dragonwars of Trayth" might want to adopt.
ReplyDeleteYea, that was snark.
"What rules set can accommodate hex combat on a large scale?"
ReplyDeleteThere are tons of old wargames designed to do just that, if that's the only thing you can think of doing with an overland map.
Who the fuck cares?
ReplyDeleteTake the high road and post useful information, Eric, and quit getting involved in this grade school bullshit.
I guess he the f**k cares, Calling out bad crowdfunding is his thing (although in this case I think it got a bit out of hand)
DeleteHe has spent all this past month or two making posts to draw new gamers into the OSR by writing about the products and resources available.
DeleteThen this weekend, anyone bothering to look at what else is on offer gets treated to a bunch of grade school stupid that just shows that he spent an inordinate amount of time scouring the internet to recover a fight he had with drunk teenagers.
Sure it is Eric's blog to do with what he pleases, but there are plenty of dickheads being dickheads already on gaming sites around the net.
At a certain point, you have to be the mature one and realize how you are acting...and this is me of all people having to say this.
I fucking care. I want to be aware of how the Dragons of Trayth people responded to criticism so I know to avoid them and folks like them in the future. We need folks like Tenkar around to keep kickstarters on their toes.
DeleteThose folks from DoT threatened legal action and in general made some pretty ludicrous statements regarding OSR stuff, and as an OSR fan, I want to take that into account.
I care you tool, he saved me time.
DeleteJohn:
DeleteNo one is forcing you to read and comment. You do know you can always skip reading a post, right? Unless, of course, you ARE being forced to read and comment on RPG blogs as part of some sort of forced-reading Gitmo-esque torture program. In which case, sorry about that.
John, besides the "this is my blog" line, which I could pull but won't, there are a few things I do take some pride in when it comes to this blog, and one big thing is "I don't fuck with it's history."
Deletethose that explore the 4,440+ posts are going to see some major warts. Some are mine alone, some are shared jointly, others are self inflicted by the foolish. all are part of what makes The Tavern "The Tavern."
If I leave my warts up for all to see, than I damn well am going to leave the warts up of the ass that threatened to sue me.
If this post or any annoys you, don't read it. Trust me, you're not being forced to.
It saved you time by mentioning a product that you didn't know about or have any intention of backing in the first place. Nice.
DeleteI always love the "don't read" it lazy response as well. Stupid shit is not apparent as stupid shit until you have read it...unless you are on a site like Huffington, where it is all stupid shit and you don't have to read it.
Eric, you can control where you go in you posts. Responding to an invalid threat from some kids on the internet is something you can control. Especially since you know the threat is not legally valid and did not come to you from a lawyer. Responding to silly crap makes you look just as silly.
You just felt like quarreling with these kids. That's it.
Feel free to drop a guest post my way, or not as you see fit. I haven't turned one down that has been submitted in good faith yet.
DeleteJudging from the 43 comments that precede this one, folks had a lot to say on topics that this post touched on
Why does everyone think you need to crowdfund anyway? Bah. I bootstrapped the Basic Fantasy Project, and if I had wanted to make it a for-profit operation I could have, with no need for "backers." Kickstarters for RPG materials are 99% crap, IMO. Money grabs by people with no proven ability to create.
ReplyDeleteFirst, create something. Make it simple, but compelling (not like the sample encounter they put out, which was as compelling as wet cardboard). Sell it print-on-demand (because traditional vanity publishing is a trap for the foolish). Make some cash AND build up your credibility, and use both to create further materials. Rinse and repeat.
Because it's a really good marketing channel, and marketing is where small RPG publishers have the hardest time. It doesn't matter what you make if nobody ever hears about it, and a successful KS push is basically a month-long marketing campaign that you get paid for.
DeleteTo take an example, my second stand-alone game, Other Dust, has netted a pre-tax profit of about $10K since I published it in 2012. That's not a stick in the eye by any means, but that's still pretty small beer for a book. My latest game published earlier this year, Scarlet Heroes, was $12K in the black from the KS alone, plus another $5K or so from post-KS sales since then. The KS is obviously cannibalizing some sales I'd normally make through DTRPG, but I have to believe that a significant chunk of its 1,001 KS backers are people I'd never have reached if it were released without the push.
It's painfully easy to screw up a KS if you approach it the wrong way, but if a publisher just follows some basic rules it's almost impossible to have a genuine disaster on your hands. Write the game first, have art and layout people working before you start the KS, fulfill through OBS' PDF and at-cost POD options, don't promise unfinished content as stretch goals, and stay the Hell away from physical shipping of any kind. Do these things and your KS will not disgrace itself.
The difference, Kevin, is that you have already proven your ability to create something that I and many others want to buy and publicly support. After reading the free version of SWN I didn't even hesitate in parting with my cash for anything related to it, including the print copy core rules.
DeleteThat said, even before Eric posted this information I made the decision not to back this project based on:
1. unproven author
2. Serious doubts regarding the design philosophy and its application to old school rules sets. This was born out by above comments that display a lack of fundamental understanding of sandbox campaigns and their history or disrespect of same.
This is a collective waste of creative and productive time. The internet allows interns to be Executives, however briefly. Back to the mail room, young man. Back to the wine coolers. Someday, when you've paid your dues and learned the power of productive dialogue and criticism, you can join us up here with the Bourbon Drinkers and Mortgage Payers. Decisions are made by the people in the room. You've sulked and whined and cried yourself out of it. Tuck your shirt in. Take off your ballcap. Add some Please and Thank You, maybe a little Yes Sir and No Sir to your vocabulary, and understand you won't be right, all the time. Marriage will teach you that.
ReplyDeleteNow stop standing there with a puffy puss on your face and get to work. This world needs workers, not whiners. We'll discuss promoting you to the Lite Beer Room in 90 days.
-Rick
Dragonwars of Trayth is clearly the greatest idea of all time and you had to ruin it!
ReplyDeleteErik, I still think you need 2 or 3 more blog posts about these guys. Maybe 4.
ReplyDeleteLooks like you killed the project. It was cancelled a few days ago.
ReplyDeleteYou'll notice that the group doing this has cancelled every KS they've attempted, including those done under the earlier name (linked in one of the above comments). I guess that the Tavern reached back in time and retroactively killed those ones, too. ;)
DeleteWow. just wow.
ReplyDeleteMy only comment is this: on pdfs, I do like that many of the choices on RPGNow have a dead tree option. I like "real" as well. :)
Both are convenient, if I want to look something up and all I have is my laptop, I can still have all my pdfs there (and text-search if the index isn't good enough). But the actual physical books are nicer to read (and easier to hold your place with a finger while you flip through to check one thing before continuing)
Delete